For example, when we read Warner we are reading his ideas. However, Warner's ideas have been influenced by the ideas of others. Some of these sources we see; they are the sources he cites, refers to by name, or explicitly discusses. Some of these ideas,on the other hand, he may have heard off hand, been birthed in discussion with others, or been conceived of while he was answering questions after a lecture. Further, after reading this text you might have a conversation about publicness with a friend. Perhaps you mention Warner, perhaps you don't. Either way the information is moving throughout the public. I think this uncertainty of how knowledge circulates itself through the public is what Warner is getting at when he says, "public discourse...goes far beyond the scale of conversation or discussion to encompass a multigeneric [remember this means many genres] lifeworld organized not by a relational axis of utterance and response but by potentially infinite axes [plural of axis] of citation and characterization" (91). Let's break that apart a bit.
The public is not simply one person speaking and another responding. It is a multitude of voices speaking, responding, imitating, referencing, and summarizing. We are all listening and talking. We all (theoretically) hear what is being said in the public--through different media and genres--though we certainly cannot hear each independent utterance. Instead, utterances are made to a public audience, who then reiterates them in a different public forum, and so on and so forth. In this way knowledge and concepts diffuse throughout the public. They seep into our minds, often without our awareness.
Here's an example of this concept from the postpunk band Titus Andronicus. I will mention here that there is an actual video for this song (with some interesting visual rhetoric), but I chose this version because of the quote at the beginning:
Ok, so this song is full of references and allusions, most of which should speak to the general listening public (especially those listening in New Jersey). For instance, the quote at the beginning comes from Abraham Lincoln's Lyceum Address. The line "if I come in on a donkey, let me ride out on a gurney" is a reference to the Christian holiday of Palm Sunday. The line "tramps like us, baby, we were born to die" references Bruce Springsteen's song "Born To Run." Finally, the song ends with a quote from the American abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison. Of course, there are a many references in this song, but those are just a few.
What I like about this song is that it embodies the public nature of how we know information. The information veers from regional dialect, to national history, to artistic, to geographical with little consideration for where the information came from. Further, this song embodies how reference and citation are simultaneously inclusive and exclusive. What I mean is that those who understand the reference are made to feel like they know something about the song and those who do not understand the reference are left to feel like they are in the dark. The song simultaneously unites some of its listeners by referencing things they are familiar with and pushes away other listeners who do not "get" the references.
Nonetheless, I feel like this conception of public knowledge is problematic. If we know things without being certain as to where they came from, then why does it matter whether or not we cite sources in academic papers? Is the system of citation arbitrary? Perhaps citation helps to not only give credit to our ideas but also to make the utterance more inclusive. Maybe, by showing where our references are coming from, we are making our utterances more inclusive than those of Titus Andronicus. This leads me to my questions:
- Do you agree with the argument that publics are created by what Warner calls "the reflexive circulation of discourse" (90)?
- why or why not?
- Does citation make the academic utterance more or less inclusive than other types of utterances?
- Are there ways to make the academic essay more inclusive?
Citing sources makes perfect sense. While admittedly it is somewhat tedious it does help to widen the population of the public belonging to a text. I had never really thought of citations in that way before. I think it’s better to think about them as helpful links to the conversation for the reader than to just think of them as a bunch of extra work you have to do so you don’t plagiarize.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with Warner on his stance of how publics are created. Individuals are united by the constant creation and distribution of ideas and texts, creating multitudes of subpublics. It’s obvious all around us, just looking at Facebook we see different “groups” appearing every day with a new idea that needs to be heard and new actions that need to be taken. And all of these alliances form off of previous groups’ decisions and ideas. There are constantly links being added to the chain of discourse therefore there is a constant development of subpublics.
Citation does make academic utterances more inclusive. I’m not sure if it makes them more inclusive than that of the Titus Andronicus song. The only reason I think this is because academic writings already take much more work for people in general to comprehend than that of music which is a genre of an utterance that is generally more accessible and pleasing to listen to. I believe a very important aspect to academic writing which sometimes gets lost is that of the writer’s voice. I feel like sometimes people can get too carried away with academic language and forget that they still need to be somewhat entertaining. I think that simple aspect in writing would make readers feel more comfortable and included when reading an unfamiliar academic text, as well as having citations to reference information.
I agree with Warner because publics are created through ideas, texts and intertwined subpublics. This creates a variety of discourse for which a public can access and therefore form an opinion. New ideas are brought to the "public's" attention through vigorous discourse. The consistant development of subpublics makes discourse very broad.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that citations make academic utterances inclusive, because academic essays and writings take more effort for the reader to make general connections with the stle of writing. Where as music is very common to a public. Citations however can cause an author's voice to become discluded, so there needs to be a correct balance of inclusive citation.
I completely agree with Warner's argument that publics are created by "the reflexive circulation of discourse"(90). An idea from one public can fuel new ideas for another public. Gabrielle said it best with her example of Facebook groups. Publics borrow ideas from each other and evolve them into a brand, new idea of their own.
ReplyDeleteCitation makes the academic paper more inclusive. By citing sources, you are giving credit to utterances before yours that influenced your utterance, or paper. Like in the song, some people may understand and know the sources you're talking about, while others may have no idea. However, I don't think that people can be left completely in the dark. All they have to do is look at your works cited page to find where your sources are and look them up for themselves, if they wish to know about the source they are unfamiliar with. You can always make the academic essay more inclusive by using language the average man wouldn't typically use or understand. You can use sources that you know most people won't know. However, if someone really wanted to be included in your paper. They can look at your sources and research for themselves to become more educated and understand your paper
I completely agree with Warner. Conversation is a result of what has been said before, like you had mentioned, and it also is a set up for future ideas, thoughts, and discourse after. For example, I may be pro-life, but it's not because of one conversation with someone who convinced me to agree or disagree with them. My opinion has been influenced by knowing others who have been influenced by experience, reading information, past class discussions, media, and so on. Furthermore, my opinion might also cause future discourse with my children someday or anyone in a related public.
ReplyDeleteCitation makes the academic essay less inclusive, as opposed to my peers. Citation is a way of showing the reader where the author received his information. The reader can directly locate the source and page number to easily find what he wrote about. Citations are creating easy access for any readers to locate what the author read and responded to and read and respond their selves. I believe this potential opportunity for the readers keeps them feeling very included in the discourse if they are interested and want to be. Yes, it will require some additional work to find the source and read and analyze it, but it's an opportunity for those who want it, nonetheless. Additionally, using well known terms and less formal diction could make the academic essay even more inclusive because a wider variety of people would obtain the ability to read it and comprehend it. Being able to understand an academic work even without existing in the public could potentially create a large public and it would be less frustrating for the reader. One could expose himself to great discourse without a strong academic background as opposed to having to be in the academic public to understand the work.
I completely agree with Warner in the argument that publics are created by "the reflexive circulation of discourse".(90)An idea from one public can fuel ideas from another public and make that public grow.Opinions are influenced from a wide range of individuals and people base their opinions on ideas from all different publics. As Katherine said it best "publics borrow ideas from each other and evolve them into brand-new ideas." I completely agree with this statement. A variety of discourse is created which the public can access making them form new and improved ideas.
ReplyDeleteCitation helps make the academic utterance more inclusive than other types of utterances. By citing sources you are giving credit to the source you got your idea from. It allows the reader to see that you know what you're talking about and makes the utterance more knowledgable. I feel sometimes though the authors voice can get lost in the paper if they are using to much of another authors voice. Referencing another persons work can help make your academic utterance stronger and more appealing to read but it can also bore the reader to death. You have to find a healthy balance between the two.
I agree with Warner because part of what makes a public, a public is the fact that information is spread around within them, and also due to the spread of information more publics can be created because of the exclusivity of knowing certain information. Also topics that come about in a public sprout from other topics of conversation. A public would not exist if information did not travel within them. His use of the word "circulation" (90) is a perfect way to describe how information travels because one topic within a public can spark conversation for a different topic that relates and come back around to the original conversation. No idea is completely original because the information to support an idea typically comes from a different source.
ReplyDeleteCitation does make academic utterances more inclusive because by citing information one is showing how that utterance fits into the current utterance that they are trying to get across, and if every utterance applied to the other then there would be no point in bringing in other sources. Academic utterances specifically need citations so that they can bring in other utterances to enlighten the current utterance and support what is being said. I don't think that there are other methods of making the academic utterances more inclusive because citing a source is the best way to bring in other sources and in doing so the utterance becomes a conversation that can only be fully understood by a public that understands the reference, and I can't think of a better way to make an academic utterance more inclusive.
I agree with Warner, all of our ideas and morals are socially constructed. Genetic material accounts for little of our social lives. We associate what we know as right and wrong with what we have learned through past discourse and experiences. This song expresses that very well because of the wide variety of references that the lyricist injects into the song. He puts in references that he would have heard in school, on the radio, on the street, and at home to build his own perspective in the discourse that he is joining. Everyone has been apart of different publics and is attracted to different kinds of discourse and that is usually associated with the discourse that you found normal or comfortable growing up. In short, we are all adding to whatever has already been said because the discourse we create is influenced by the discourse that came before it.
ReplyDeleteI believe that citing sources is a way to prove you know what you are talking about. If you simply just state something, it's hard for one to take you seriously in this public. Multiple sources can help shape your ideas without trying to convince you to sway one way or the other. I agree with Warner because one topic can leak into another within certain sub publics. That is how ideas can get spread around and ideas to be heard even further.
ReplyDeleteI feel like I'm just echoing a general consensus, but yes I do agree with Warner. The passing of information from discourse to discourse, and public to public is vital to /adding/ to those discourses. For example, Women's Studies is an interdisciplinary field that discusses the issues facing women with experts in psychology, sociology, queer theory, economics, and who knows how many other disciplines suggesting ways to improve lives of women. I believe this influence and transformation of ideas from all facets is what allows Women's Studies to be such a well-rounded discipline.
ReplyDeleteCitation makes the academic utterance both more and less inclusive. Sharing the knowledge you have when adding to a public where your utterance is understood by showing the receipts of how you gained this knowledge is best done with citation. Citation is effective because it leads an utterance back to the discourse happening before you added to it, possibly opens a door for others to add to the discourse after you, and gives you credibility within an academic public. All of that is fantastic, but because citation is a convention needed to legitimize the utterance being added to the public you are speaking in, and not accessible to a larger portion of society than is being addressed the academic utterance becomes less inclusive. I feel like a push to lessen how strictly academic conventions are adhered to might allow the public utterance to grow, and use of less formal/generic language, or jargon is the key to that.
I totally agree with Warner on the idea that publics are created on "the reflexive circulation of discourse". Mostly because when you break it down to the most basic idea, everything we know is from what we have been told or personally seen or experienced. This idea of Warner's is the basic idea that we are children in a way. Children learn by doing and what there parents tell them. This parallels with us as students, we learn what we know by what we have heard in school. Which those ideas have come from what our teachers have learned, which they have either heard from their teachers or textbooks. And textbooks are written based on other academic sources or pieces of text from history. So it is easy to see that everything is a big circle.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that using citations make our papers more inclusive because we are using information that other people may not know about. Howvere, only to an extent because we still introduce the basic ideas of our citations in our writing. And we also give the information where we got our sources which allows readers to inform themselves on what we are talking about.
However, I think they are less inclusive than the song because we cite and explain our sources. the song leaves you out of the loop because it doesn't introduce the ideas it is just brought in and expects you to know it.
I agree with Warner's idea that no single utterance makes a public. There can't be a public make from one utterance because an utterance is connected by other ideas and its continuous. There would be no way to have a discourse if the idea that was being discussed stood alone without any previous knowledge. I agree with Paige when she says that a public would not exsist if information didn't cerculate within them. There are always new ideas coming up, but they are based on previous utterances.
ReplyDeleteBy citing a course, the academic utterance is more inclusive. It gives people the opportunity to go to the source and get more information about what is being talked about. It is inclusive because from the video I didn't know hardly any of the references, but by being given a source, I am able to learn more about what is being addressed so I can properly be a part of that utterance. It would be difficult to find a way that is more inclusive because the academic paper is talking about a specific topic and if the reader doesn't understand the references or doesn't look up the citations, nothing more can be done.
I think that warner is completely right. You cant make a public without other peoples opinions and ideas all put together into one. When you have a lot of information with a lot of opinions a lot more publics can be created. Also i feel like publics would not even exists if there was controversy witihn a public. also one topic can bring up a completely different topic and publics can just work off of one anothers ideas. personally i dont think anyone comes up with their own ideas they hear it from someone else and word it into their own and just work off of another source.
ReplyDeletePeople need to use citation because you are showing an utterance and your also expressing the fact that you did not come up with the idea and that you got it from a source. we use the basic citation of our writing. though i do feel different about a song. Songs dont express any kind of citation they just expect you to know what they are talking about without any kind of explanation.
I do agree with Warner's argument. I think every utterance we have in influenced by others; whether we know it or not. So we are not just speaking our utterance, but continuing others as well. I also think that all this information and all these opinions are being circulated through the public that someone cannot help but be influenced.
ReplyDeleteI think that citing something does make it more valid. It makes what your saying or trying to argue more meaningful if someone of great importance or knowledge has facts and meaning to back you up. I do think that citing makes academic writing more inclusive because it uses specific references to people not know by the whole public. It is geared towards a certain public by using specific references.
Public's are definitely created through reflexive circulation of discourse. When enough private people unite publicly, different public's with different beliefs and values form. Citation makes an academic utterance more inclusive. After researching and reader different utterance, your opinion begins to change.To make it more inclusive, do more research to form more of an opinion!
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